Thar Shaddin

Talion gave me pause for thought.

There are bad elves in the world, just as there are good elves. Before anyone comes along and introduces the Drow/Underdark concept I'd like to nip it in the bud. Those concepts are D&D straight up.

For purposes of Thar, I'd like to propose this: the word "drow" does not exist. Instead, we will use "Pyrn" is a derogatory term used to describe elves who turn their back on the belief systems of the elves. These are the criminal element or just plain ass crazy element - the psychotic serial killers. Sort of like calling someone a punk-ass but with much more derogatory intent. To be called a Pyrn is a pretty big insult unless of course, you are one. Pyrn look like any other elf. If you want your bad elf to have a pigmentation difference, that's cool, there are light skinned elves, there are dark skinned elves... just realize they are not a separate race.

As a race, Elves lean toward physical prowess and scholarly pursuits. Elves are the Children of Theogious and Baresi - Baresi meaning Nature.

For context, if you need a D&D type reference -Think: Ranger. Think: Lawful Good.

As a general rule, the Elves of Darleone are brave of heart, quick of wit, physically dexterous, and possessed of mental acumen. They are also a bit fixed in their outlook. This is a race that varies little - as the racial description for the setting says, they are homogeneous.

The criminal element will be based mostly in cities faced with external influences. There's probably some sort of organized guild thing or other, as that just seems like the way it'd be done - some skills are just, unfortunately, necessary in the scheme of things. BUT, I'll go so far to say that most elves lean toward the lawful end of the spectrum and crime, especially unsanctioned crime, would be dealt with in a most-single minded manner. Right. That's my ramble for tonight.

Thoughts?

oh wait, more thoughts

Their society is geared toward philanthropy, equality, non-violence, and scholarly pursuits; however, they are good warriors and soldiers - learning these skills because the necessity of them. Elves are more analytical than passionate. Less inclined toward cruely, selfishness, and violence.

Balance is a key belief factor/tenet. Though, I'd say they are imbalanced because of the flaw in their nature - the hubris/inflexibility they can possess.

Lastly, this isn't to say that the inflexibility/hubris doesn't manifest in different ways. This is typically the key thing in differentiating one elf from the next, though it is possible groups of elves will have similar viewpoints.

ok. 2nd part of ramble done.

Jedi, anyone? No, I'm not trolling, I think this is a good outline for what people should expect when they want to play full blood elven characters. If I had time, I'd write more, but off to work I go!

Yes I too agree with what you have posted here for the basic outline of elves, it fits very nicely with what most people have come to expect from elves. If you don't mind I would like to add some of my ideas to it.

Elves tend to be xenophobic, not fully trusting the other races who tend to lean towards violence and cruelty. This would not be the case with all elves though, those who were born or spent a good deal of time off of the island might be more trusting of others.

They tend to be somewhat arrogant, feeling that being creatures of a higher intellect that they are better then the "lesser races."

It was stated that elves celebrate the solstices and equinoxes; with the changing of the seasons they would have to worship some kind of sun and moon deity and this would understandably make them Pagan. They would lean towards a form of Druidism, respecting nature and viewing themselves as the keepers of the balance. That said any other deities that they worshiped would be connected to nature.

A list of possible nature gods:

A sun deity (most likely male as the sun is the protector of light)

A moon deity (most likely female as it cycles in time with females)

A lake/river/water deity (either gender or a water animal, very important because water is essentialto life)

A Harvest/plant deity (very similar to the Greenman)

A volcano deity (I'm thinking similar to the Hawaiian volcano deity. It would be seen a deity of both creation and destruction as new life grows after the destruction of a lava flow)

It would make since that Elves living in the main cites would focus their worship on one or a few deities while those from a more rural part of the island may worship many gods and live their lives by the will of the gods. (This is the case for the village that Talion is from) Each little village or town might very well have their own set of gods and rituals that they practice that could very greatly from town to town.

*Important note: Druids do not practice any form of ritual blood sacrifice. It is against the balance to kill anything unless it is for food or in protecting oneself or those that can not protect themselves. I understand there will be bad/evil elves but they would not be killing in an attempt to appease the gods.

Oooh gods! Good point.

Well, in the scheme of things the Elves believe they are Children of Theogious and Baresi (Nature). I"m working on an "origin theory" at the moment in which elves were created by Theogious for the sole purpose of helping Theogious and his people (humans) fight during the Changer's War. Therefore, the male aspect is Theogious. The feminine is Baresi. If it's a nature-based thing, it's Baresi all the way. I think sticking with the two works as a general rule/statement for Elves as a race. Pagan, yes, but polytheistic only in context of male/female aspect.

Side thought: Origin-wise if an elf exists in Pal Threnor, they or their family started out from Darleone. Darleone is the launching point of the elvish race into Pal Threnor. So if you're an elf from Marn, your ancestors came from Darleone. Elf from Tan Xia, same.

There would most likely be an arrogance factor, but humans were created first. Elves are considered to be based on humans - made in their image if you will. I am not sure from a' looking down their nose' perspective/generalization that the Elves would look at Humans like that. Individually perhaps, but as a whole, I'd say not. Orcs? Well, now, that is a wholly different story.

More on Orcs another time. Frug and I were discussing them last night - will get around to transcribing some of that soon.

Xenophobic! Yes, I'd say that would apply to Darleone Island elves. For those elves that live outside of Darleone or were raised in places outside of Darleone I think this would tranlsate into being more insular - bi-cultural if you will. Someone who was raised in bi-culturally would be better able to describe this than I. What I think of is the folks I work with from India. They might born and raised in the U.S., but a marriage is typically arranged with someone back home or at least within the Indian community based in the U.S. Sorry if I'm showing ignorance here, just trying to give an example. SOooo someone with a little more knowledge or experience, please feel free to expand on that.

To shed light on what people think of as arrogance from elves, which is instead an aloofness held by them to help keep the 'balance'. As for the fact that elves were after humans, and are based on humans, whats to say that elves don't view themselves as the perfection based off the first, bad attempt at intelligent life. Wouldn't that make you look down your nose a bit at those you felt were your inferiors?


Just my quick thoughts. *goes back to work*

Jaspenellar wrote:Jedi, anyone?

Keeping elves from being essentially perfect people is important. They're not, and not supposed to be, all that much better than humans in the end. They're lucky to be blessed with a lot, but not for free.

Anyone who's spoken to me about this knows that I don't like elves. They're too often idealized a la lord of the rings; sliding down stairs while surfing on a shield and plugging arrows into orks. Basically portrayed as ascendant humans, what we all aspire to be. I don't go for that.

They're a little smarter, a little faster, and live a little longer, but not to a huge degree. An acrobatic human can match what most elves can do. Humans can do impressive things, it's just easier for an elf.

Culturally based Xenophobia is one flaw that's been portrayed in other fantasy settings as well. Goddamn snooty elves make me want to punch them.

I want to stress certain other drawbacks though:

Elves are not all attractive. Full blooded elves can look very weird to a human, with pushed up cheeks and weird shaped eyes. It is entirely possible for an elf to be described as ugly. (Ree isn't, mind you, she's a babe)

As has been mentioned, some of them are downright bastards or evil, or even stupid. They do fight amongst eachother. Darleone island is no utopia. Infighting, political maneuvering and disagreements are things that should happen among elven societies. They're not all that happy all the time.

And coming to the elves in Marn, they're definitely not Jedi. They're lost and often subjugated in Marn. I think Marn is the setting where they're most interesting. They can't really afford to be snooty or xenophobic in Marn. They're the underdogs with a troubled past here. Elves in Marn are like African Americans in the 60's. There's some racism, and they're culturally troubled. No doubt a few of them get picked on in school.

Elves in Marn are like African Americans in the 60's. There's some racism, and they're culturally troubled. No doubt a few of them get picked on in school.

OK, I see potential for extreme confusion here, and I want to head that off at the pass. I think this analogy needs a lot of clarification.

What part of the 1960's in the United States are we talking about here? They didn't have the Civil Rights Act until 1964 or the Voting Rights Act until 1965, so whether it's before or after that makes a big difference in the level of access minorities had to services and government. Nor did racism end then. It was virulent and open throughout that decade and the following one, and continues to this day in more veiled forms. Also, where? The situation was very different in different parts of the country.

In the 1960's, sit-ins and boycotts were still in full swing to end previously legalized segregation. Dr. King was arrested in Birmingham in 1963 for nonviolent protest. Should Marn expect similar political action? Would such action be necessary to try to push for a semblance of equality?

In 1961, a group (The Freedom Riders) made a stand to end segregation on public buses. In response, one bus was firebombed, and another had a group of riders severely beaten with the active cooperation of a local official. Several civil rights workers were killed in Mississippi in 1964, with little reaction or concern from the authorities. Dr. King was assassinated in 1968. Lynchings were disturbingly common in the South throughout the decade, and the police turned a blind eye. Would Elves in Marn face that kind of violence? Would the authorities be fine with it?

Last night my mom was telling me about a trip she took to Florida in 1963-- and she still saw segregated bathrooms and drinking fountains. Would Marn have this level of planned segregation? Now or in the past?

As for the being picked on in school... 1957 saw a school being forcibly integrated by the National Guard-- i.e. with guns. After that year, some states shut down schools rather than allowing black students in. The Mississippi governor blocked the integration of a state university in 1962, and the governor of Alabama tried to block a state university integration in 1963. That's pretty crucial background for the real 1960's. Students who did go to integrated schools often faced severe harassment, continuing into the 1960's. Is that level of harassment what you actually intend for Marn? Because it's more than just a little teasing, students were in fear for their lives-- and that makes a difference in how people play this.

I'm not trying to dismiss or poke holes in your analogy-- it's just that the 1960's were a time of severe and sometimes lethal racism. If that's what you intend, cool. But it also means something pretty major for the setting; racism in the 1960's was not a minor thing-- and this makes me think we shouldn't be playing it as minor in the setting.

So could you maybe go into the specific questions I bolded above, to be more clear about what aspects of the 1960's would be relevant? Because otherwise, I think this analogy is going to lead to confusion, and people being on vastly different pages about the levels of racism and xenophobia.

And I'll reiterate a portion of my statement for the elven-hating Fruglet.

Chezak wrote:...whats to say that elves don't view themselves as the perfection based off the first, bad attempt at intelligent life.

The key words are "view themselves". Didn't the Germans view themselves as superior and perfect? I'm not saying that elves are perfect, I'm saying that they think they are perfect, and that is where a bit of their arrogant attitude comes from.

Chez is an example of an elf that's not perfect. He's just good at what he does, which, incidentally, is sliding down stairs on shields firing arrows into orc-ies.

Just sayin ...

Jasmina Apsara wrote:

Elves in Marn are like African Americans in the 60's. There's some racism, and they're culturally troubled. No doubt a few of them get picked on in school.

OK, I see potential for extreme confusion here, and I want to head that off at the pass. I think this analogy needs a lot of clarification.

Woah. Okay. Bad example. Have some mercy, I'm not American, our civil rights situation here was very different. I did not mean for this to turn into this debate. I pulled a date out of thin air, but this grew far out of proportion. I wish I had not mentioned it at all.

Chezak D'Maroe wrote: The key words are "view themselves". Didn't the Germans view themselves as superior and perfect? I'm not saying that elves are perfect, I'm saying that they think they are perfect, and that is where a bit of their arrogant attitude comes from.

Chez is an example of an elf that's not perfect. He's just good at what he does, which, incidentally, is sliding down stairs on shields firing arrows into orc-ies.

...

I was responding more to Jasp's comment about Jedi.

Woah. Okay. Bad example. Have some mercy, I'm not American, our civil rights situation here was very different. I did not mean for this to turn into this debate. I pulled a date out of thin air, but this grew far out of proportion. I wish I had not mentioned it at all.

Sorry, I really didn't mean to pick on you. The analogy just threw me for a loop given the historical situation, as I wasn't quite sure what you intended by it-- and if it had stood, it would have huge setting consequences that would have needed to be made clear. I have no desire to debate the Civil Rights Era either. If it's not really relevant after all, we can just let it go.

Whee! discussion!

We have had the 'second-class citizen' discussion regarding elves in Marn before. Based on those discussions, my impression has always been elves are accepted, but there are certain folks who look down on elves - Idonir is a good example of this. If we use racism as an example, I think racism as it shows itself today would be more applicable when applied to elves.

My key thought was that the elves are a definite sub-culture within any given society. They have their own language, marriages are usually arranged by the parents and for the elves they think its a great thing - the partner is decided upon analytically based on the two partner's personality types, life-goals. They have very prescribed ways of interacting with one-another in an almost caste system like way. Marnian Elves are Marnian AND they are elves, and they have to find the means to balance that definition of self within themselves and the ways in which they express their loyalty.

Elves who are not from Marn are viewed differently than those from Marn by the Elves of Marn. Outside elves are foreigners, because Marn is even more insular than most places.

I do expect that there is in-fighting amongst the elves of Darleone, but envisaged a centralized Darleone government with the Island being broken up into Provinces. Outwardly facing, they put up a good front- governmental marketing and all that, but inwardly I expect they squabble just as well as the British Parliment on a fun day - hrumph hrumph!

I do think there is definitely an arrogance/aloofness to the elves. I think that is one of their flaws and flaws are good. I'm just saying that arrogance manifests itself in different ways.

Chezak,

Good point. I think that depends on where they originated. Darleone elves probably do view themselves as better. Full stop and insert whatever race you want after that. Theogious did create them in order to help save the humans after all... I mean.. the humans couldn't save themselves... right?

Marnian elves have that subjugation/2nd class citizen factor. Perhaps these elves, who migrated to Marn from Darleone, did so because they disagreed with the Darleone approach and agreed with the concept that elves are indeed 2nd class, created in the human image PLUS think magic is just plain BAD. These elves would have left Darleone possibly for the same reason puritans left England. The leaving and such is wholly a belief in Theogious as a higher power thing. Talk about arrogance, those Darleone elves think they know the reason Theogious created them!

Marnian elves who practice magic have a different mindset. They sacrifice themselves - their very souls in order to practice magic. They understand that they have the capacity to handle magic better than humans, but that is a curse not a blessing. Ok, ok, that does not take into account those elves who disagree with that belief, but as a general rule a "good citizen of Marn" believes and accepts this as fact. I think. Frug'll have to correct me if I'm wrong.

I think I got off the topic

Ree has spoken.